BWI part3 A
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Better World Island, Part 3Posted to: Second Life by Tom Munnecke (1533), Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:00:05 PST Edited: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 21:34:49 PST Feedback score: 0 +|- (net 2 from me) Comments: 128 by 18 members (most recent: last year by Gillo Cutrupi (CCAL30) (59)) Viewed: 965 times by 91 members This is a continuation of a discussion thread Better World Island Part 2 and Part 1 This message is being continued in a separate community dedicated to Second Life In Part 2 of the saga, o.net members gradually discover some of the features of the Second World. We discover some touching poetry and an essay about the value of virtual worlds to the disabled, and their Live2Give island, being built by a group of extremely disabled individuals, which triggered off a separate thread on Innovative Use of Technology for the Severely Disabled. Darlene Charneco tumbles out of the wormhole to present some of her art which is amazingly similar to the discussions of the island. We discussed some of the social implications of second life and its participants, and created a new Omidyar Second Life community to hold future discussions. And the saga continues...
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By P (CCAL30) (1400), Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:12:30 PST Comment feedback score: 0 +|- (net 0 from me) Thanks Tom, I continue to find Second Life (SL) totally fascinating. I keep learning new things which, in turn, opens my mind up to new possibilites for real life (RL) solutions... One small problem, I look at the rl now through SL lenses. Kind of weird, but everything is a texture or an object, or how could I recreate this in SL... bizarre. Part of the immersion process. When I get out of a longer session in SL, I have culture shock. Has anyone read "Snow Crash" by Neal Stephenson? SL has to be based on that book. I am re-reading it after several years. It takes on new meaning now. WOW.
By Tom Munnecke (1533), Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:27:27 PST
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Pam, I too find SL fascinating, not sure how "totally" it is, though. I guess I am particularly interested in the interface between the first and second life worlds.
Part of me thinks that the alter-identity in Second Life is a positive thing, but another part worries that this is creating a problem for younger people who are growing up without having yet developed a strong sense of personal identity. Kenneth Gergen in his book "The Saturated Self" talks about how advertising images swamp our sense of self (i.e. the surgically enhanced anorexics on the magazine covers in grocery stores saturating young girls' self-image of beauty).
I, of course am immune to this problem, happily wearing socks with my sandals (yesterday, I noticed that my socks didn't even match). I suspect that on the whole, having this space for exploration of self is a positive thing, particularly if it displaces a passive TV-watching sense of self. At least, folks are participating in creating their own worlds.
regarding Better World Activities, I am interested in folks' ideas on how SL might facilitate these.
Comments?
By Anne Marie Bellavance (CCAL30) (2223), Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:42:17 PST
Edited: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:43:51 PST
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encouraging tattoos and piercings in SL for my kids someday may just satisfy the need :D
i am too new to SL to comment - the SL world is massive. has anyone discovered other uplifting groups? Thanks to lilone I do see ways SL could benefit every RL community in some way - we have only mentioned CP, stroke, aspergers, terminal and elder potential. I think in the future somehow it will also benefit dementia and alzheimers victims - the possibilities are breathtaking.
the immersion is bewildering to me personally. I truly escape and need a few minutes to transition back to RL.
By Pierre Omidyar (CCAL30) (2548), Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:41:04 PST
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I find the immersion comments quite interesting, and quite true. Of course, I've had those immersive experiences before, in other gaming environments, and even while working intensely creating new code. But in those cases, there was nothing social about it: I was in my own world. Obviously very different in Second Life.
I wonder if this immersion effect can facilitate "real" connections between people, even though they are only physically close in this virtual space? If so, I think that's a good thing: it increases our ability to maintain more rich connections with more people, without having to travel to their countries, suffer jet lag, etc.
(I happen to think that one of the very interesting things going on right now is how technology assists us in maintaining many more significant connections to people than we would otherwise be able to. In my calculus, more "rich" connections means more capacity for overall "good.")
By Pierre Omidyar (CCAL30) (2548), Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:47:55 PST
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Regarding the question of identity issues, I think it's a good question. Though I think we "adults" tend to be generally alarmist when it comes to anything new that could affect our kids. I know I am. :-)
I can think of at least one positive element of an avatar-based environment: it's basically a level playing field and promotes tolerance of diversity. You can show up with blue skin of the opposite gender, or as a bunny rabbit, but if you can still "speak" intelligently, people will listen.
(We should probably also note here that Second Life is not intended for children. You must be 18 or over. And unlike other 18-and-over sites, I highly recommend that you not let younger children wander unsupervised. SL is like the Internet in its diversity.)
By c•a•r•l•a (white) (1330), Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:53:15 PST
Edited: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:54:21 PST
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Absolutely Pierre your comment of "rich" connections and how technology can facilitate that.
When I've been in the presence of kindred spirits that I am blessed to have in my life, I have often thought, "wow, there are probably so many more amazing people like this in the world, I wish I could meet more of them..."
And boom, here I am at o.net and have met some amazing people that I would never have met if this technology were not here. And we have already "done good" together....
I have made a few bonds here with some people that I plan on cultivating for a lifetime.
I know there will be more.
It's funny, in a place like this with almost 5000 members, just like in real life, I've found "kindred spirits".
Exciting.
By Tom Munnecke (1533), Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:58:10 PST
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Actually, I think it is important that we keep the one true identity.
Tortoise: Tom can get a little carried away with this. He only thinks he has one true identity.
Achilles: Well, Tortoise, we should let him have his delusional world all to himself.
Tortoise: OK, let's shut up now and let him put his other foot in his mouth.
Maybe we need some way to control things when folks try to assume too many identities.
By Darlene Charneco (CCAL30) (595), Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:53:44 PST
Edited: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:54:55 PST
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A message from the linkfairy;) :
From my secret research files..;)...you might all enjoy taking a peek at John Suler's hypertext on The Psychology of Cyberspace. Good intros and essays on many many topics you are and will be exploring!Including identity management, Tom!;)
http://www.rider.edu/~suler/psycyber/psycyber.html
Browse through the overview...
By Darlene Charneco (CCAL30) (595), Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:27:53 PST
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This comment has been deleted.
By Darlene Charneco (CCAL30) (595), Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:47:39 PST
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Darlene Charneco said:
On a personal note, and referring to your comment on facilitating 'real' connections, Pierre, I've found that the most effective medium for that was the one that encouraged the most 'sharing' and opening up so that you truly feel you're getting to know the person.
I'd kept bookjournals for years...but most of my 'world' remained that, 'my world'. And I found difficulty expressing and connecting on these deeper thoughts and feelings in real life...because so much of social life was geared towards polite surface or smalltalk. Then I happened upon something called opendiary.com and I was amazed that I could read the intimate thoughts and daily lives of the LIVING. (I used to love autobiographies and published book diaries...but there's something disheartening about relating so much to what you read but the person is long dead..difficult to have a good relationship, you know?) Anyway, I decided to give the opendiary a try...and it was a personal experiment on just how much I would be comfortable sharing...since this was now 'open'! Since then I've switched to something called livejournal.com and THIS is my current addiction. Through it I have 'met' and cultivated SUPER-real relationships with people over years that I cannot Begin to explain the closeness. Why? I think a lot of it has to do with bonding deeply on common interests and being able to sort of listen in on a human's progress through life, complete with weak moments and silliness. The journal is a bit less formal than a 'blog' usually...and the site encourages the concept of 'friending' those whose journals you would like to keep up with.. I bring all this up...because I have been trying to envision how the best aspects of livejournal might integrate and be included into a 3d realm such as SL. At this point the time seems ripe for my livejournal friends and I to 'meet' within SL. But the getting to know part has mostly been well under way, this is icing, a novelty, shared visual dreamworld. Now how could we facilitate the 'getting to know' part within SL between people Without a prior relationship?
This was one of the thoughts behind my 'memory palace' posts. Trying to visualize the insertion of a lot more personal information into 'homes' that are visitable on SL and encouraging a sort of mind-joining/trust that could be built on with realtime interaction. One of the difficulties I have with SL in the trust department is the transient 'masquerade aspect'. It's enjoyable, just as a real masquerade party is...but there's something about that that seems to breed a different sort of relationship for me... unless I have a grounding in the person's real identity somehow.And I don't mean their physical image...I mean who they are inside...what their thoughts and interests are, their likes and dislikes, their hopes and dreams...
http://www.omidyar.net/user/u501515842/news/0/
http://www.omidyar.net/user/u501515842/news/1/
I know it's a lot..but please please comment if/when you can!:)?
By Grégoire Japiot (CCAL30) (489), Fri, 18 Feb 2005 04:05:05 PST
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I suggest some assertions for reading my comments and impressions :
I am an O/net member that still resist the SL's temptation (no real merit cause it's for the biggest part cause of my lack of time and money for the moment); because of that I speak about something I just know with the reading of different threads here ; so I'm objective because not addicted ! (I've read on a thread someone using the image of drug-addiction )
I am in France, far away (just geographically ;o) ) from the majority of ON people, so particularly interested in what Pierre writes : 'I wonder if this immersion effect can facilitate "real" connections between people, even though they are only physically close in this virtual space? If so, I think that's a good thing: it increases our ability to maintain more rich connections with more people, without having to travel to their countries, suffer jet lag, etc.'
I've spent 2 years of my life (I was 16) spending 70% of my time in the virtual words of role's games (specially 'Donjons and Dragon's' and 'Star War', but I've try all the ones that were available : Cthullu, Hawkmoon, Marvel, James Bond, etc.). . . there was just 30% time left, that was not enough to reach next class
Around this period I've been 'video games addicted' and have spent lots of time and money in game's rooms (that was before the nintendo/sega etc. accession)
I've had my 'virtual flight experience' on the period I read Castaneda, listened Pink Floyd and experiment some artificial way of thinking and living
Pam said :
'One small problem, I look at the rl now through SL lenses. Kind of weird, but everything is a texture or an object, or how could I recreate this in SL... bizarre. Part of the immersion process.
When I get out of a longer session in SL, I have culture shock.'
>>>That remembers me my role's games period, when I was immersed in 'Donjons and Dragons' universe (Tolkien universe), 'Star Wars' universe or 'Marvel Superheroes' universe
>>>That remembers me something closer : when I close my PowerBook after a day spent on sharing ideas with my imaginary friends and trying to build a Better World
Tom said :
'I, of course am immune to this problem, happily wearing socks with my sandals'
and
Anne Marie said :
'encouraging tattoos and piercings in SL for my kids someday may just satisfy the need :D'
That appears for me like another way for catharsis ; medias often speak about that concerning violence in TV or video-games, I think here we have another way for this debate.
My quote of Anne-Marie and Tom concerning that is limited (specially concerning the socks and sandal's catharsis :oD ) ; I don't know about the SL map, but I'm sure that some other Islands are not as peaceful as the O/net one, and there are probably people that use SL for virtual fights ?
Pierre said :
'I can think of at least one positive element of an avatar-based environment: it's basically a level playing field and promotes tolerance of diversity. You can show up with blue skin of the opposite gender, or as a bunny rabbit, but if you can still "speak" intelligently, people will listen.'
>>>That excites me : in the real life I don't really take care of appearance of people but I know that unconsciously my brain makes a mental note of that and so, what this people make or say is 'falsify' by this judgment. In my 'Internet life' I can be totally liberated about that if I don't read the profile or feedback of people. In SL that's something between : unconsciously (or consciously) your brain makes a mental note about which avatar people have chosen.
By Anne Marie Bellavance (CCAL30) (2223), Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:52:24 PST
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Sl is my first gaming environment experience. Rich connections to more good sparkling people (aka kindred spirits) is a gift from omidyar.net which I hope strengthens some of those connections in SL. But has anyone met someone in SL, other than lilone and john, who is a rich connection? I do find more of the masquerade party - surface party talk on SL - which is a fun escape for awhile but I think uplift groups that have started in RL can join/share their connections in SL all together creating an epidemic of good. It will be more engaging for me to tour and visit their SL worlds than to keep up with all of the great real life blogs.
I would love for us to create a neighborhood in SL for all of us to build our dream homes - i do feel like a squatter and would rather be a neighbor.........
By c•a•r•l•a (white) (1330), Fri, 18 Feb 2005 08:09:35 PST
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Darlene,
I like what you said about openness...
I have attended some "experiencial" character building seminars where you get quite "open" (if you choose to) with total strangers.
The bonds I made with some of those people over 10 years ago are stronger, sadly, then with some friends I've known twice as long.
Intimacy is the key, the defined it as: "in to me see"...
When you've seen the soul of another and they've seen yours, that bond is beyond anything I've experienced in most relationships.
I thought of that when you shared about the open diary.
Thanks...
By Anne Marie Bellavance (CCAL30) (2223), Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:43:24 PST
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Biology seeks to understand the living by taking it apart and reducing it to it pieces. Artificial life, on the other hand, has nothing to dissect, so it can only make progress by putting the living together and assembling it from pieces. Rather than analyze life, synthesize it. For this reason, Langton says, "Artificial life amounts to the practice of synthetic biology."
still reading kevin kellys out of control..........
By Tom Munnecke (1533), Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:34:09 PST
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One of the properties of complex adaptive systems is that they are in a state of "perpetual novelty" - that is, we can always expect surprises. Putting a bunch of "dumb" ants together and getting "smart" behavior on the part of the colony is a very interesting form of novelty. I think that Second Life is a very fertile world for demonstrating and exploring this kind of novel behavior.
Stuart Kauffman calls this "order for free" by the way (I am calling it "snowflakes")
To quote Einstein, "Problems cannot be solved in the same level of consciousness in which they were created" - SL gives us an "outside the box" environment to look back at systems we might be embedded in. So, in a "real" world which is "stuck" in the metaphor of an utterly archaic accounting system, we could create a SL world with another model of understanding behavior..
By Anne Marie Bellavance (CCAL30) (2223), Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:38:12 PST
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one step closer to toasters, cats and snowflakes - but smoke is pouring from my ears thank you for creating a rich, complex, environment here for my simple self - vs. simple environment for the complex self :D
By Mary Coughlan (21), Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:35:34 PST
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you folks look to be about the most interesting crowd I have seen so far in omidyar.net. . . . hmmmm
By P (CCAL30) (1400), Sat, 19 Feb 2005 20:08:38 PST
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Hi Mary, welcome... and we haven't even told you about giant flamingos named Eliza and hottubs yet in Second Life! ;-)
By JS : ) >+=> (CCAL30) (783), Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:50:56 PST Comment feedback score: 0 (net 0 from me) [Deleted by author on 15 Nov 2005 08:19 PST: ~] By Darlene Charneco (CCAL30) (595), Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:06:47 PST Comment feedback score: 0 Hope it's ok to add more screenshots, I think they are able to convey so much! A few mornings ago I searched for and found a beautiful Temple of Buddha on SecondLife and my avatar and I meditated together for the first time. It was wonderful. The meditation script is pretty amazing...the slowww and subtle breathing movements...the eyes!...I felt myself relax right into it just watching her/me. This is something quite profound when you think of it. Such an intuitive Learning Tool.. and related to what I brought up on the previous thread about the cultivation of scripts which can subtly guide us into a deeper level of awareness in our interactions... The meditation script is attached to the object I'm sitting on. Clicking on 'Sit Here' activates it and I encourage sitting for a while and really experiencing it while playing around with 'camera controls' so you can see your avatar better and closer. Think about how many different things can be learned in this way! My artwork Suki's Teahouse referred to a guided tea ceremony script (pic on the last thread)....this is an ancient art which is about much more than 'tea';)....hmmm ANyhoo...I Landmarked this spot as a favorite to return to often. My sound wasn't working but there is even a spinning tibetan prayer wheel near the buddha with Om Mani Padme Hum as a 'sound'! I'll return some day to hear it. This Temple is located in Kasba.
By Tom Munnecke (1533), Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:11:47 PST
Edited: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:11:52 PST
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Interesting site, Ava. I participate in a real world group which opens its conference calls with a moment of silence. This may seem paradoxical, but it is actually quite focusing. I have to shut off my home/office noise environment in order to listen to the silence on the phone. Listening for nothing can be a rich experience, and apparently Second Life's immersion is capable of supporting this. Fascinating.
On a more mundane side, I've recently gotten some Linden Dollars from people signing up on Second Life and naming Tortoise Calliope as the referrer. I'll be using these dollars to support the Better World Group, so please name me (or someone else) when you sign up to get that money circulating in the group.
I've also discovered a new web service from Google called Keyhole which is very intriguing as a link to "real world" maps amazingly similar to Second Life worlds. Below is an aerial/sattelite photo of the Salk Institute in La Jolla (La Jolla cove is in the background). The photo is overlaid on a topographical chart to show elevations in three dimensions. The viewer allows you to zoom in and out vertically, as well as tilt from directly above to near ground level.
It does this for the entire globe - you can take a tour of all the UNESCO world heritage sites, for example, flying from place to place across the globe to each site, then click on windows for other photos, web links, etc. You can also view the images with many different layers turned on or off, such as schools, parks, roads, census, etc. You can also add your own overlays which allow you to put place markers and other information on the map for others to share. This is a fascinating world view and service... and opens up some really interesting potential for linking real world geographical information to other information sources, perhaps even a second life world linked directly first life geography. Here is an image of Yosemite National Park:
By Darlene Charneco (CCAL30) (595), Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:40:14 PST Comment feedback score: 0 A few friends have linked me to Keyhole, knowing this is SO what I've been looking for! It seems really utterly amazing and I would love to look closer, but as you know I cannot run it on my current computer. SL has been crashing B's computer continually now as well. It has made it pretty unbearable which is why I am hardly on.:( Anyway, Very relatedly, I came across and am now reading this book which seems perfectly appropriate: Mirror Worlds by David Gelernter Amazon Product Description: "Imagine looking at your computer screen and seeing reality--an image of your city, for instance, complete with moving traffic patterns, or a picture that sketches the state of an entire corporation at this second. These representations are called Mirror Worlds, and according to David Gelernter they will soon be available to everyone. Mirror Worlds are high-tech voodoo dolls: by interacting with the images, you interact with reality. Indeed, Mirror Worlds will revolutionize the use of computers, transforming them from (mere) handy tools to crystal balls which will allow us to see the world more vividly and see into it more deeply. In this fascinating book Gelernter takes us on a guided tour of the computer technology of the near future. Mirror Worlds, he contends, will allow us to explore the world in unprecedented depth and detail without leaving the comfort of home. And he doesn't just speculate about how this amazing new software will be used--he shows us how it will be made, explaining carefully and in detail how to build a Mirror World using technology already available."
By Tom Munnecke (1533), Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:50:38 PST
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Darlene, you've stumbled on a (long-running) hot topic in the world of computer science. Also, check out Croquet by some of the industry heavyweights:
WHAT IF... ...we were to create a new operating system and user interface knowing what we know today, how far could we go? What kinds of decisions would we make that we might have been unable to even consider 20 or 30 years ago, when the current set of operating systems were first created? ...we could collaborate with one another in an online dimension to create or simulate anything we wanted to? ...we had the robustness of a 3D immersive technology, the diversity of the Internet, and the degree of social interaction we have in the real world? CROQUET IS... ...a combination of open source computer software and network architecture that supports deep collaboration and resource sharing among large numbers of users. Such collaboration is carried out within the context of a large-scale distributed information system. The software and architecture define a framework for delivering a scalable, persistent, and extensible interface to network delivered resources.
What we are seeing with the Second Life, Keyhole, and Croquet interfaces are precursors to the next generation user interface. Instead of a 2 dimensional desktop/windows/files model, we will have an immersive 3 dimensional world model, linking things spatially and with new notions of "proximity." Quite a wild ride. And, yes, the software is very immature (I can't run Second LIfe and Keyhole simultaneously, for example). It is also requires a new generation of computing power and graphics capability. This is not a problem for future hardware, but a major problem for older stuff. For better or worse, since the industry (read: Intel and Microsoft) has been looking for ways of getting consumers to upgrade their computers, 3d immersion might be the next "Next Thing" to drive the market. Stay tuned.
By Anne Marie Bellavance (CCAL30) (2223), Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:04:29 PST
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another boosegumps moment........unlimited potential
By Darlene Charneco (CCAL30) (595), Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:43:07 PST
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Tom, the realm I visited in my Pier10 dream 6 years ago WAS the integration of these concepts. I walked through it, experienced it. It was amazing. Every surface, object, avatar clickable...a portal to info or an activator of pre-programmed scripts.Memes and collaboration. Searching and experiencing. the web integrated with something like SL. I know it's on its way, and fast. It's what's been driving me. My little job as I see it is to hopefully be able to convey that if an efficient and novel system of charity distribution is DESIGNED into this from the get-go we will be able to SIMULTANEOUSLY solve world problems using the most Minimal contributions from the MOST users. It will be almost effortless and like a GAME and the results are SO REAL it NEEDS to be done. This is why I contacted you.There is another idea that goes hand in hand..and this is the brick and mortar space I mentioned. I would like to start a workspace for describing that...but embarassingly I still haven't figured out how to start one?perhaps advise me on email?
